This is an unedited transcript created using Otter.Ai. As such, it may contain minor errors.

 

Chapter One: Climate change and its Impact on the Planet

 

Paul Sutton 0:00

Hi. I’m Paul Sutton and this is digital download the show where I talk to topic experts on digital marketing social media and public relations, about the things that matter in today’s communications industry.

 

News Reader 0:27

Earth reaching its highest temperature on record for a fourth day in a row. 10 million Americans are under warning for extreme heat this morning as tornadoes touched down in Colorado with softball sized hail wreaking havoc.

 

The sea surrounding Antarctica is well below any previous recorded winter level. That’s what’s shown by satellite data and it’s a worrying new benchmark for a region that once seemed resistant to global warming.

 

A new analysis from dozens of scientists finds that conditions on Earth may be moving outside the safe operating space for humanity.

 

PS 1:01

Those are just a few of the headline stories on climate change from the past few weeks. Barely a day goes by without a new milestone being broken or another climate related weather event wreaking havoc somewhere in the world. Just two weeks ago, disastrous flooding in Libya killed 1000s with a study by the world weather attribution group finding that climate change have made the storm that caused the floods 50 times more likely, and bringing up to 50% More rain. It’s a depressing and scary but all too familiar story. 

 

The recent scientific assessment of the health of the world found that six out of the nine boundaries beyond which a healthy and habitable planet is in danger of failing have already been broken, to more or close to being broken. The reason for this pollution and the destruction of the natural world caused by humans. On the face of it is difficult not to agree with Agent Smith in the matrix

 

Movie Clip 1:59

Human beings are disease, a cancer of this planet. You’re a plague.

 

PS 2:07

Over overly dramatic, maybe, but maybe not. While the causes of climate change are acknowledged, the solutions are actually quite complex, not because they’re especially difficult, even if they do impede heavily on modern life. But because climate change is a political matter, and where politics are concerned, nothing is straightforward. 

 

Take two of the big causes of climate change as an example. Transport accounts for around 30% of global carbon emissions 72% of those come from road transportation. So we should switch to electric cars fueled by sustainable electricity as soon as possible, right? Well, yes, but it’s not quite that simple. I did so this year changing to old diesel cars to to electric cars and installing a charger a home. But the cars cost me about 900 pounds a month, and the charger was around 1500 pounds is expensive.

 

Then let’s look at meat consumption, livestock production. And that’s primarily cows produce 14 and a half percent of global greenhouse gas emissions. And then you have to consider the deforestation caused by mass cattle farming. It’s a huge issue. But do we really want to stop eating meat on mass, it would appear not as wild plant based eating has been on the increase and is now fairly mainstream in the UK. So has meat production with a global increase of over 7% in the last five years. Going back to the political point, it is not in the best interest of the government to force people to use electric cars or to financially incentivize people to eat meat that could cost them votes.

 

Rishi Sunak 3:52

I’m announcing today that we’re going to ease the transition to electric vehicles, you’ll still be able to buy petrol and diesel cars and vans until 2035.

 

We will give people far more time to make the necessary transition to heat pumps. The proposal for government to interfere in how many passengers you can have in your car. I’ve scrapped it. The proposal that we should force you to have seven different bins in your home. I’ve scrapped it, the proposal to make you change your diet and harm British farmers by taxing meat or to create new taxes to discourage flying or going on holiday. I’ve scrapped those two and nor will we ban new oil and gas in the North Sea.

 

PS 4:37

So does it come down to us as individuals? Let’s face it me having gone vegetarian a year ago or driving electric cars is not going to stop the planet warming or does it come down to businesses being more responsible in their sustainability efforts?

 

Today I’m talking to John Brown founder of B Corp certified agency Don’t cry wolf and a passion In a climate change activist. But before we get on to sustainable business practice, I asked John about his views on what’s happening on a macro level,

 

John Brown 5:09

In broad context, the idea that we were going to somehow pass this sort of 1.5 degrees worth of warming, at some point in the next 10 to 15 years has been significantly narrowed right in the eye. And the likelihood is that will be kind of around about 2037 will have sort of surpassed that. And back in June, in that unit, there was a recording of, you know, over 1.5 degrees and surface temperature. So we’re kind of weird sort of keep nipping at it, if you’d like then at 1.5 degrees of surface temperature warming was the stretch targets of what we should be limiting our warming to the overarching target was two degrees, which I think a lot of people forget that the stretch target was 1.5.

 

And we’ve got right now an El Nino event, which is a natural climate phenomenon, but obviously, a natural climate phenomenon in the context of a real of a man made, warming, everything. It’s just everything’s magnified. Right. And I think this is the thing that often gets lost in debate or discussion. You know, you’ve got one side of the house saying, oh, yeah, this is all just natural. And you got the other side of the house, I know, this is all just manmade, it’s actually some, it’s that that is the great, it’s always this grey area in the middle, right, which is that yes, you’ll there are natural events that take place, there have always been, you know, the natural events or significant proportion, weather events, if you like, droughts, forest fires, etc, etc.

 

But the reason why it’s so important now is that those events are more frequent, more substantial, and more prolonged than ever before. And that’s due to this side of the house, which is the fact that we’re kind of spending a lot of time pumping a lot of bad things into our atmosphere, and amplifying those, those those moments. So I think in the situation, which we’re in, and what the latest sort of reports were today, was that there’s a big event coming this El Nino event, which happens naturally, but it obviously it will be amplified as a result of what’s happening on a sort of human level. Yeah.

 

And that is a worry, because we’re previously we’re already seeing that the last few years, you know, mass droughts, extreme temperatures, huge forest fires, etc, etc, flooding in other parts of the world, which is contributing to a real problem, a real issue. 

 

PS 8:05

And I mean, although there’s been this one off, I say, one off this one day where we we’ve surpassed this temperature, I mean, even in this same story, you know, June was the hottest, ever, low average temperature around the entire world even is affecting places like Antarctica, and Asia and places in Europe. And I mean, you know, you can’t ignore this, can you but I get the sense that people still do. And like you said, El Nino is a natural event, right? It’s gonna happen. And therefore, you’re gonna get some people saying, Yeah, based on natural event, they’ll stop.

 

JB 8:21

Yeah. Do you know what it is? It’s not that they’re ignoring it. Because they think, Oh, it’s just natural. You know, the, the scientific consensus is sort of 98% global scientific consensus that we’re contributing to significant and potentially catastrophic climate change. It’s becoming fewer and fewer individuals around the world talking about the fact that they’re, you know, this is, this is a hoax and stuff like that. I mean, still, you get the fucking tinfoil hat wearing that kind of bang on about the fact that this is all a hoax, and it’s orchestrated by Nasser, and stuff like that. But then in the same breath, but talking about the world being flat, and you know, that you should ignore them. What it is, it’s a addiction to the status quo, right?

 

We don’t need more climate scientists, we have everything that we need to say, and I’m speaking as someone who’s doing a master’s in environmental in sustainable futures, right. And he’s got a degree in environmental science. Yeah, we don’t need more people to look at more of the science, everything exists, right, everything sat there, we’ve got the technology that to be able to address this. We’ve got the science to be able to prove, you know, what will happen if we don’t, we’ve got all of the information to hand we’ve got all of the kind of steps that we should be taking, which don’t want to take him right, because it’s actually hard. It is genuinely hard and in and in what it is, is an addiction to the status quo. Right?

 

What it is, is this sort of, it’s far easier just to kind of Bumble along with the current global economy that is completely extractive rather than circular. recovered completely linear rather than distributed. And it’s really easy to carry on because we fucking love it man like, because it’s like, McDonald’s arrives within five minutes because Netflix kind of pump stuff into our eyeball. So we don’t have to pay too much attention. Because I can kind of get into a tick tock hole just having a poo in the morning, you know? It because we are addicted to that. And we don’t really want to give any of it up. And I think that’s been the challenge, which is it’s not that we don’t have the tools or the capacity or the brainpower or the resources to address this. We have all of those things. It’s just that we don’t want to do it, because it will be uncomfortable.

 

Chapter Two: Sustainable Living

 

PS 10:39

Yeah. On that note, I mean, going back to last year, you did something which, to me seems completely uncomfortable, very challenging. We take this train to the conference in Rome. Yeah, it seemed to take you. I don’t know, it seemed to take about five days to get there. Do the conference, get that which if you’d have flown would have been two days. Do you want to just talk through this? What was your What was your motivation to do this? What was the what was the reaction to it? I mean, did it was what yeah, what was the reaction to it?

 

JB 11:15

I swear down but it didn’t even occur to me not to take the train. You know, before that, I took my entire family to Vienna and back by train, right you know, two young kids and what have you they’re travelling by train is not a min extraordinary feat. You know, people, people are doing much more interesting things. Far more sort of endurance things than me sell my art sipping espresso and eat. Right, you know, there’s, there’s, it was just a showcase of not even showcase. I like travelling by train. And so I was gonna do that.

 

And yeah, I guess there’s a bit of sanctimony there, there was a there was a bit sanctimony there, which is like, we’re going to be for good Leaders Conference, which is all about how we can run regenerative businesses that tackle things such as climate change, and every fucking flying that and you don’t need to. Yeah, and that really did get my goat a bit. And I did feel smug. And that was set, sanctimonious definite night, I was gonna say, like, thinly veiled, like, it wasn’t even thinly veiled, it was just there for all to see.

 

But you know, I went there and back by train. And it was a cool journey, the way out was sort of, we had a, we had an engine break down. So that was a bit of an issue. But we got sorted. And we were, and it was fine. And and what I was trying to highlight was, you know, a few different things, I suppose. Number one, you can do it. Actually, it’s quite a cool way to travel. I’ve got quite a lot of work done. And it was super pleasant. And number two, it costs way too much to do that.

 

And that’s a real problem. That’s the systemic change bit. Yeah. Because that might cost me the best part of 1200 quid, and it was flights for 45 quid return. Yeah, yeah. That’s a real, systemic change, again, we’ll have something that we have to look at systemically and ask ourselves, why on earth? is it costing this amount to go by drag? And I guess, the final thing in all of this is don’t be, don’t be a hypocrite man. Like, if you’re, if that’s, we know that carbon emissions from flying is one of the things that you should, if you want to reduce your carbon footprint, really, there’s three things that you should do one not have any kids to reduce your intake of meat and investment into the mass industrial kind of farming and agriculture.

 

And the third thing is this try and fly less. Right? If you wanted to reduce your own personal carbon footprint, which I’d much rather you didn’t do anything about your own personal karma, this is a message by the way to everyone out there. Forget about reducing our past personal carbon footprint, march on Downing Street and break the whole fucking system down. And it’s still going to go on holiday tomorrow. That’ll be the most important thing that you could do.

 

But yeah, so we had this event that was all supposed to be about, you know, how wonderful we are and how much we’re leading regenerative businesses, and this is the new economy. And everyone’s flying that and it’s absurd, and it shouldn’t happen.

 

PS 14:16

What was the reaction on the ground to that? Or did you not really talk about that when you were there?

 

JB 14:22

No, we, you know, people were coming up to me into a hole. Wow. I can’t believe you took the train from you know, from Cornwall. Yeah.

 

PS 14:30

That was another were you like, Well, yeah, you flew you to that.

 

JB 14:34

I just said, Well, you know, it’s a really great way of travelling and, and it all came down to time, right? They all it all came down down to time. Oh, yeah. But I don’t have the time to travel by that I’d love to, but I just didn’t have the time. So well, you know. I mean, I wasn’t I’m not scratching my answer. I’m still running a business and doing everything like that. Like, you just manage your time differently to allow for these things. Got it? I mean?

 

Like, I don’t I don’t go, I don’t know whether whether it’s that important, then if you can’t get there sustainably maybe just don’t go or maybe just join him virtually, or maybe have other conversation, but I don’t know, it’s it was just something that I felt needed to be done and that we needed to kind of address and stuff like that. And I wanted to, and I love travelling by train, I want to show you that.

 

Chapter Three: Sustainability in Marketing and Communications

 

PS 15:30

I think you made the point. From my perspective anyway, it certainly made the point to me at that conference, is there anything you can highlight that came out of that conference about running more sustainable businesses that you’ve seen actioned in the last 12 months? And I say that because often, you see, especially with conferences, there’s a lot of great talk goes on. And then people go away, they go back to their everyday lives and nothing changes.

 

JB 

Yeah. This sounds like it’s gonna be a bit of a bash, I think, is a bashing. That one in particular, there was another one I went through recently at the same conference, but this year’s version in Amsterdam. Well, that first one, actually, to an extent, a bit of a second one, just at the moment, it felt like, you know, it felt like we’re all there going on, look at all the great work we’re doing. And we’re gonna save the world and stuff like that, especially in the first one, there was little kind of honest discussion about, well, hang on a second, a lot of us have been in business for a fair few years. And, you know, emissions inequality, and governance has only been going one way and that’s negatively or in a negative fashion. You know, so like, can we just pause for a moment?

 

And rather than this turned into a sort of huge back slapping sort of exercise? Can we just kind of take pause and say, well, actually, very little has changed? Yeah, like, really, very little has changed. I mean, there’s 7000, B corpse in the world, right? We are a tiny fraction of what the global economy looks like. Now, that’s not to say that’s not important. I think it is important. And it’s a growing movement, and it’s growing with pace and, and I think with credibility and a real sense of drive around ushering in a more regenerative economy, but we’re still fraction of that economy. Right. And I just felt like it was almost weird sort of, you could you could genuinely walk away from that cotton conference and saw it with fine. Yep. Right. Because, you know, because Chloe is now doing sustainable handbags. We were wicked. Yeah.

 

It’s just not the real world. I think it missed. Still a lot of voices from the Global South, which, you know, holds the largest amount of natural capital, which would still not even addressing, and will also be the most impacted by climate change, and has contributed the least amount of manmade emissions. Right. There’s no voices really representing that discussion, which I think it’s a massive show.

 

PS 18:06

Taking that from a marketing communications perspective, I do that because obviously, this podcast addresses that sector. Yeah. In your view, again, going back over the last 12 months, have you seen much change in that sector into? I don’t know anything around sustainability, or the way people are running businesses? Or is it? People are refusing to go travel to meeting anything at all? Have you seen anything change?

 

JB 18:33

Yeah, I think there’s been some positive stuff. I think there’s people more aware there’s more equal agencies, for example, in our world, which I think is a good step, because they’re taking the time and the effort and the money and the resources it takes to actually genuinely analyse their business. And I think there’s a real desire to want to kind of do better which I think’s positive. Right.

 

I think there’s the biggest change I’ve seen has been internal change amongst agencies, and I can really only speak, you know, I mean, that’s my my world, right? So agencies are spaced, taking more time, effort, money, resources to change themselves. The challenge is that that is not translating into the work. And it all goes to shit when there’s profit involved. Yes. And profit and regenerative practices aren’t mutually exclusive things. You can do both. 

 

But it’s harder to do both. Right. And so, you know, there’s change positively from the agency world. I think there’s desire from the in house world or from organisations to be part of this discussion, this debate, what the, what we end up with can be still really flimsy, really weak and not rooted in actual evidence or insight. And that’s where the challenge is right? So you still got the as that which I suppose is another positive VSA is really kind of added some teeth into addressing things like greenwashing campaigns. So you’ve got the AASA, you know, finding and issuing sanctions left, right and centre to organisations. But here’s my problem with that, is that it the creatives, the communicators, and the marketers shouldn’t be fucking doing it in the first place. Yeah.

 

Like, it’s too important to keep sort of paying having this sort of kind of cat and mouse game, which is like, Let’s see whether we can make this sort of dubious Net Zero claim and see if we get told off versus let’s not make that claim in the first place, because it pollutes and muddies the water on something that is urgent and incredibly important for us to address. And I think that is where I lose faith and get quite disheartened in my industry is that there’s, I still think, a fairly basic grasp or understanding of the science and the Yeah, and I guess that’s sort of the situation. And therefore, if a client is turning around and saying, Oh, well, by the way, you know, we’re, we’re investing so much into net zero, and we’re actually carbon neutral or carbon, whatever it might be.

 

And they’ve not got the the knock got the insight, or perhaps even the confidence to really, really challenge that. Now, and PRCA is misinformation, the climate crisis group, which is run by Laura wrecker that, you know, they, there’s research to suggest that people are challenging with small. Right, right, that the thing is, I think they’re challenging it if it’s really, really, really overt. Yes, yeah, yeah. It’s more subtle than that. And it’s more important than that, as well. And I just still think that we’re kind of, you know, there’s everyone, we talk a great game around ESG, you know, like ESG emerged from people wanting to diversify their funds away from apartheid and tobacco. Like, it’s not a new thing. That’s where it came from. 

 

And as a financial instrument, so that people weren’t investing in sort of systemic racism, or, you know, killing people through lung cancer. It’s almost gone full circle now to the fact that like, Philip Morris is talking about it being an ESG stock at one stage. And that’s, that is part and parcel of coming from like cons and, and crap comes at that, you know, that, you know, because we’re now diversified out of tobacco, which they haven’t. And because now we’re good for the planet, which they’re not. We’re somehow and ESG stock. And that really, for me, it showcases sort of, we haven’t really got to grips with this yet. Have we wait, there isn’t someone in the corporate comms team turning around and saying, Sorry, could you not say that, please? Because you sound like a fucking idiot. Right? And it’s not true.

 

Chapter Four: Individual v Collective Action

 

PS 23:01

Yeah. I guess my perspective on this is going back to what you said about maybe maybe hypocrisy in this and prophets is that I see a lot of individuals who are trying to make efforts to change their behaviour or on a personal level. And even even if I look at myself, so I guys stopped eating meat. Last summer, it was around the time we had that really record heatwave. And I got into watching videos about how, you know, farming, particularly cows, was just really damaging for the environment and made a decision then, okay, well, I won’t eat meat anymore. So I stopped doing that. And we changed to electric cars and things. So we’re making an effort of some kind, whether that’s enough or not, you can argue till the cows come home.

 

But I see people making individual efforts. But then they go to work. Like you say, maybe there’s a project or something that they shouldn’t really be working on. But they’re getting paid for it. They’re getting paid well for it. So there’s they will go through and do that I think without questioning too hard because of either they’re employed or they’re like you said the profitability comes into it. And there is feet it feels to me like there is there is a jarring a lot of hypocrisy around the individual beliefs of someone and what they’re actually doing in the workplace, or the work they’re doing it is Do you think that’s true? Is that just really cynical of me?

 

JB 24:39

So, okay, there’s a few things though, which I’m just going to unpack if you don’t mind. Go through each one, right. So individual action versus collective action, right? So individually as a northern hemisphere, you know, middle class individual, right? On average, you’re gonna contribute naught point naught ought to the power of eight 3%. So naught point naught, eight more notes 3% of global emissions, whether you have a hamburger or not, is not going to make an enormous amount of difference, right?

 

Obviously, if collective action would mean if everyone did that would make enormous amount of difference, but that’s also not what’s going to happen, either. That’s kind of that isn’t happening. You know, veganism, for example, is slowed after a sort of significant peak and things such as that. But so first and foremost, I always say to, it’s great for us, you and me, right, we switch to electric car. Cool. That’s awesome.

 

But here’s the but but we are not the population. Right, we are still sat in a fairly privileged part of the socio economic chart. Okay. Yeah, the majority of people are living on a living in a system, which is working against them quite heavily. Yep. So they are working, they’re waking up each day. And thinking, Well, I have to get to this job to get back 20 quid in my back pocket, so that I can put food on my table on the on the table. So I don’t want anyone ever to feel guilty about the fact that they’re driving and diesel vans, that job, and that the only holiday that they take once every five years is abroad, which they get on a flight for? 

 

Absolutely not. I think they should even put it out Who am I to say any of that? What I want people to vote with is not with their pound, but is with their vote, right? So the thing that the thing that is accessible to everyone that is free, is your vote, right? It’s how you’re voting, it’s how we’re bringing in change at the highest possible level that we can influence in order to have a shift in the status quo in in this systemic environment that we’re living in.

 

And if and in all honesty, if you change nothing about your life, other than inform yourself politically, become more active in that space, so that you can influence as high level as possible, other people and yourself to go and make that change at the polling booths, I think we would start to see a genuine shift. So that’s, that’s the first thing that comes on to work, right. So what whether you should be doing this at work, and when you should be moving your values into work, if you are comfortable. Right, and if you have the capability, and this financial security, in order to make that effective change and make that switch tomorrow, go, 

 

You know what, fuck this, I’m not working with this organisation anymore, because it’s hypocritical, it doesn’t live with my values that make that decision. And if you’re not, then yeah, perhaps you’re a bit of a hypocrite. Because you’ve got, there’s no reason for you not to be able to make that decision, that’s a very fuse, or that’s not been a great number of people in that position. So if you are not in that position, and you’re working in an organisation that is jarring against your values, things that you can do is to try and influence and educate, change, and bring a bit of a voice to the table and speak up around this subject to try and showcase how an organization’s that the organisations that have changed that have aligned more closely with their values, the benefit that they get, and to try and give yourself moments of opportunity in which you are bringing the voice of the world of climate of nature to the actual table and see if you can influence change that way.

 

And if you still can’t, then yes, fine, by all means, look for a just transition that is going to work for you and your family. But, you know, this sense that and this is the problem with climate activists in the past is that there’s this just this black and white approach, you know, switch to an electric car. Well, the IPCC report doesn’t say everyone should buy an electric car. The IPCC report says vehicle usage should pass by 50. Should have. Yeah, right. Yeah. It’s, it’s not of any kind. So it’s just the fact that we, you and I need a car we drive around, like, and we’ve got the money to get an electric car. Yeah.

 

But it’s, it’s this sort of black and white approach. You drive electric car, don’t fly, quit your job and do something more meaningful. There’s very few people in the world are in that privileged enough position to actually kind of do any of that type of stuff. Right? Yeah. And while you’ve obviously then got us in the Global North, turning around to the global South, going, Oh, don’t burn coal, even though we’ve done it for the last 100 years. Don’t fly even though we’ve done it for the last 50 years. You know, don’t don’t focus on mass consumerism even though we’re still doing it. It’s just It’s bullshit.

 

That’s the hippo hypocrisy that I really really ran against. I don’t I have empathy and love for The person who is on the breadline trying to make ends meet. And I genuinely do not expect them to sit there for one moment and consider whether the action that they’re taking that day or the thing that they’re shoving in their mouth or the car that they’re driving is in some way going to impact the climate because they’re looking after their kids, or because they’re trying to keep a roof over their head.

 

PS 30:20

Yeah, and especially in the moment, yeah, it’s difficult. It is difficult. I totally agree. And even if you take the last year or two, the way, the world as a whole has gone, it’s become more difficult, actually. So yeah, I totally understand what you’re saying there. Okay.

 

JB 30:35

I mean, like, today, we’re hearing rumours that the UK Government is going to sort of backslide on its, like 11 point 6 billion pound commitment to financing or providing finance to address climate change, particularly in the Global South. And one of the reasons given in this memo, and we don’t know whether that’s actually happening, or not, one of the reasons given was in pandemic war in Ukraine, right. And global economy. So those are reasons given. I struggle with some of this man, I really do because it’s gonna sound awful. But look, you know, war is super profitable, to a certain number of very, very powerful individuals, organisations with very powerful lobbying voices in international governments. So at some point in time, you got to sit back and think, Well, you know, like, Halliburton and BA Systems and various other sort of organisations are probably quite enjoying the fact that the arms are being produced and sold in mass quantities like never before. About I don’t know, you know, I can’t solve that particular political commander of I’m just highlighting the fact that to some people, war is incredibly profitable. Yeah.

 

And we look at the pandemic, and we look at the economic kind of climate and things such as that. And really, you know, I think it’s becoming more and more evident that the mismanagement that took place on both of those things, right, that has shoved us into a really, really tough situation. So then it does just come back to the idea of, well then vote with your vote, right. We know, and, you know, hold the next government, whatever it is to count, if it is a Labour Government, and Kier. Starmer, is, you know, his government or is, as Tory is a labour person can be, you know, like, make sure that they’re not going to backslide embrace the idea that they’re thinking about a, or putting forward a manifesto that employee Inc incorporates a sort of regenerative strategy and a renewable energy approach, you know, have that as part and parcel of your campaigns, I think, from a content marketing perspective, with still going way too far down the line of I will, let’s talk about how we use 20% percent less water in our teacher, rather than how do we get this fucking global government to switch to a more regenerative approach?

How do we give natural capital, a voice when it’s excluded from GDP? Right? How do we do things like that? Like, those are the campaigns which I’d love to see, and I don’t think we’re seeing many of them.

 

Chapter Five: Climate Change and its Impact on Society

 

PS 33:16

Here’s a question then do you? Do you fear that this whole topic around sustainability, the environment, it’s not that it gets forgotten, but we had a pandemic, which was massive, right? It dominated the news agenda, understandably and what people were talking about, we got a cost of living crisis, where people are struggling to put food on the table, and rents are so high there, can’t rent a place to live.

 

You’ve got a war in Europe, all of these things could even throw this in there. I hate it. But AI is getting so much tension. Yeah, all of these things come along. And there will be other things, right, that’s going to happen the next 12 months, there’ll be things that we haven’t thought of at the moment, they’ll come out the environmental side of things, tends, in my view, to take a backseat to the more topical things that happen. So this is really fucking important. But it seems to get pushed, it gets quelled. Do you know what I’m saying?

 

JB 34:16

It’s, I totally know what you’re saying. Right? You know, when you’re when people are dying around you, because of pandemic when you’re unable to feed your children because of cost of living crisis. And when you’re ducking from bombs, right, and try not to get shot. And then all the while you’re worried that your jobs gonna be taken over by chat GPT Of course, climate kind of the climate crisis feels less important because those things are on your doorstep in there immediately.

 

I think the challenge we’ve had with from a climate communications perspective over the years, is that we’ve not done a good job of actually linking some of those things to the fact that that To the not that it all comes down to climate. But if you take the pandemic, right, if we’re further, if we’re going to continue to deforest, then we’re going to encroach further and further into nature and live more densely populated lives with less access to sanitation, and due to obviously, also sort of economy, economic pressures. But if we’re living closer and closer to the borders of where we shouldn’t really be in nature, then the chances of pandemic are rising again, increase replicas, you know, we are exposing ourselves to things that we shouldn’t be exposing ourselves to, we’re living more densely populated, to allow the transmission to take place.

 

There is a climate argument to be made in and around this, if you’re thinking about AI, and you’re thinking about cost of living and things such as that. If you look at regenerative economy, and you really do study things like donut economics, hero of mine capable with an economist sort of talks came up this idea or concept of donut economics, there’s actually, you know, this, there’s plenty of evidence to suggest that you can see a path towards better pay and better social security, and better safety nets for individuals so that they feel so that they have a better quality of life. Right? And we’ve not made that link, we’ve not highlighted the fact that actually if you do do, if you do look at the regenerative path, you could actually be putting an extra fibre in your pocket, if we get this right.

 

If you’re incorporating AI ethically, and looking at that as an opportunity for progress, certainly for addressing climate science, or, or taking a look at new ways, new jobs, new new services, etc, etc. There’s ways in which you can kind of make the link and say, well, actually, that can be part and parcel of a regenerative world, and it can be of benefit as well. And I think we what we’re doing is going Holy shit. IPCC has just started modelling for four degrees worth of warming, if we had four degrees worth of worth of warming it really, like you’re talking about sort of fucking Mad Max territory, right? Like, yeah, it is. But we spent so much time focusing on that, rather than focusing on actually look at what a model would look like, if we get this right.

 

Look at the world that you’d be living in the security you would have as an individual. Look at the opportunities that exist within that realm. There is a common challenge in that way.

 

PS 37:18

Well, yeah. Do you ever think that? Because you’re really passionate about this? Do you ever think you’re fighting a bit of a losing battle?

 

JB 37:26

Oh, man all the time. Like, I honestly, I have. There’s not a month that goes by where I don’t have a real sense of, actually, I just want to probably give all this shit up and go and spend time with my kids. Yeah, I opened up some fucking bakery in Cornwall, and, you know, just try and live as simply a meaningfully with my family as possible. And actually, what happens happens, like, every month, I have that crisis in my mind every month

 

PS 37:59

What keeps you going?

 

JB 38:02

Ego, probably a bit of it. So there’s a bit of that, I’d say. I also need to, you know, I also have a human being that has to have that needs certain amount of security from our world. This is this is providing some level of security altruistically, I think, even if there’s one person listening to this podcast today, that may make a decision to be more politically active, or to try and influence internally. I think that’s, that keeps me buzzing around it. But that might like, I don’t I’m not trying to be realistic or anything like that. But it is a blue. It suggests it’s a losing battle right now.

 

Yeah, with the emissions are only going one way natural capital is declining. Yeah, people’s living conditions deteriorating, and, you know, we are facing potentially a real threat of mass migration. I mean, that from a sense of, you know, that is a global issue that we need to address because certain parts of this world are going to become fairly uninhabitable. So, you know, it is a very, it is a losing battle, like, and the reason why it’s a losing battle is not because we don’t have the intelligence or ingenuity or resources. It’s because the people who are profiteering most from the status quo are also the most powerful and therefore don’t want to let it go.

 

Chapter Six: B Corp Certification and Criticism

 

PS 39:40

Can we talk about B Corp a bit? You mentioned this earlier? Yeah. Now, I think you said there’s 7000 B Corp members at the moment, which I’m sure which is small, but it seems to me to have gained a lot of traction in the last year 18 months or so. Certainly, I see it being talked about had it more in my circles. But against that there has also been a lot of or some at least criticism of B Corp. about some of the members is allowed in the note of lobbying? Nespresso. Yeah. And also, I have seen the odd. Again, maybe it’s a small agency. I can’t think specifically but who has said, Well, what’s the benefit of me going through this process? If everyone else is going through the process as well, and I know this misses the point entirely. But if everyone’s be caught, then what’s the point?

 

JB 40:35

Right, it does miss the point entirely.

 

PS 40:37

It does. It does miss the point. I totally agree. And then I think it was before Christmas, Brew Dog got kicked out of the thing really, but…

 

JB 40:45

they resigned from it,

 

PS 40:47

Did they resign? they didn’t get kicked out.

 

JB 40:50

I mean, reading between the lines, if they hadn’t resigned, they would have been kicked out.

 

PS 40:59

What’s your take on everything that’s gone on around B Corp in the, in the last 12 months or so.

 

JB 41:04

So let’s, let’s take those bit by bit, I’m gonna start with the small agency or small business owner, B Corp is not a fucking USP is a USP, you’re you’re thinking of it as a USP. And you’ve got two problems there. One, you’ve probably got crap business. Because if you’re thinking that certification is going to be what stands out for you, as a USP, as an organisation, then honestly go and have a look at your business model and your services and go do something else.

 

The second part on that is having a look left and right and working out, Well, who else is going to be a beat, we’ve got loads of competitors. Now who will be caught. And I love each and every one of them for doing that, because it shows a level of transparency and dedication to measuring and understanding your organisation that I think if more businesses did that, we’d be in a better place economically, and on the path to a more regenerative sort of world and kind of a greener, more Kinder economy. So I think that addresses the other thing, if you’re looking at is USP, gonna do something else when I work. I mean, if you’re looking at any certification as being a USP, go and do something else, like, how boring how boring to address your life and that way.

 

But then if you look at the other bits and pieces, it’s been through a lot of criticism. Absolutely. It’s been through a lot of criticism, and that’s what makes it a vibrant and meaningful movement in my mind. So mousePressed stateless press, I was one I think people have talked about Evian being another and a few other organisations that come through that have really raised some eyebrows around us. You’ve got to make a decision at one point in your life to say, Okay, well am I going to look at Nespresso through the lens of water, polluting, horrific, awful organisation that is never ever going to change? And I can’t believe it’s now equal certified what a mockery it makes it a movement, or am I going to look at it through the lens of this organisation has an incredibly chequered history with sustainability with human rights with a heap of other issues and areas that needs to focus. 

 

Could this be the point at which it seems we see change, and to give it the benefit of the doubt, at least for the next three years, which is when people recertified every three years to see whether it has made meaningful progress on this path? Because certification is not the destination for vehicles, right? If you look at some of the best sort of organisations within the Beco world, they’re constantly improving each time they’re there recertified, right? We went through recertification. In fact, our points milk and honey went through the recertification massively up their points, you know, there’s, there’s definitely that is the point of the Corbett’s to give you a framework with which to continuously progress and improve your organisation. 

 

Now, if the spresso in a year and a half’s time after their look, their certification have made no improvements have made no progress. And also bear in mind that the B Corp standards are changing, and they’re gonna get harder, more meaningful, and more kind of like, Look, these are the these are the minimum criteria that you have to meet to become a B Corp. And they they failed that. Then we can say, right, well, you’re not a you’re not you’re decertified, and B, you weren’t in this for the right for the right spirit. Yeah, that level all of that blame. And so like throw that all at them right from the start just gives them no chance to actually progress and, and move forward. I don’t want B Corp.

 

To become a good person’s private member’s club or angel still sit here and sort of jerk off at how good we all are. Right? It cannot become that what it has to be is a movement and a community that embraces positive change and progress and moves people and organisations through a framework that allows them to significantly alter their business from when they first become certified to forevermore and that they’re only going to do that through evolving their standards. So making sure that the standards are up to scratch and then is not gonna be perfect, the next iteration of standards aren’t gonna be perfect either, but they should be an evolution.

 

So evolve their standards to have a movement that is also addressing the status quo. So having a bit more of a political voice in the organisations, we get of all different shapes and sizes, tie a chance, which the end of it, but from a community perspective, to have a community that is willing to perhaps give the benefit of the doubt the start and hold feet to the fire during the process. So that then organisations such as espresso, such as Evian, have a chance to prove their worth. And if they don’t, then they’re not going to be certified.

 

Chapter Seven: Sustainability, Politics and Business Certification

 

PS 45:39

I think that’s a really good point, actually. And it’s a very big distinction between, I guess, the company, I see talking about it, who, unsurprisingly, go through the process get certified, and want to announce that they’ve been certified. And it’s almost like that is presented as the end goal. Not the journey of getting there. And not even the journey of getting there the journey of okay, well, we got X amount of points. So therefore, we need to improve this and this and this. 

 

JB 46:09

So if you actually get to the probably the bee lab community has got a bit of blame there as well, because it’s not done enough to sort of, I suppose maybe could provide guidance as to how you should communicate as a B Corp. If you’re presenting certification is done and dusted. Right. Yeah. And, you know, look how great we are. We’re on at two points, you know, so we just kind of got in by the fucking skin of our teeth. And, you know, this is brilliant, we’re really sustainable business now. Like, can we can we have some of your money, then? That is a real problem. Right? That is an issue that we’ve got to look at from a conference perspective.

 

If it is, we are we dedicated last three years of work to really understanding our organisation, we have just made it into the court world, right, we’ve managed to get certification, which we’re deadly, deeply proud of. And we are going to celebrate this i unashamedly celebrated. But our path now has just begun. Our journey now has just begun. That’s a completely different narrative. And yeah, I mean, if you’re an organisation that is just sort of going well, we’ll be caught. But so is everyone else. And so we don’t want to announce it when you’re missing the point, man. Totally.

 

PS 47:22

Maybe that’s that, like I said, the bits that I’ve seen where people saying, well, I don’t see the point in getting certified. But it’s missing the point of that journey, and missing the point of improving and constantly improvement rather than just being able to say you’re certified. So maybe that’s where that comes from.

 

JB 47:35

I think they’re gonna do all the work, right? If they’re gonna do all the hard work anyways, and do things like a materiality analysis and explore their governance procedures and look at the benefits or impacts on society and on the environment and stuff like that. And they don’t want to get the court certified. Don’t that’s that. I totally love that. Yeah. But you know, if you’re, if you’re not, if you’re not going to do that stuff, unless there’s some sort of like, reward, you know, notoriety then job online? Totally, totally wrong way.

 

PS 48:04

Yeah. Okay. Just to finish off them. You’ve talked a lot about being more perhaps politically active as a, as a call to action, if you like this. This is a difficult one. But we’ve already talked about cost of living, war, you know, all the other things going on? Do you think that sustainability is actually going to be high on people’s personal agendas when it comes to their political choices, who they choose to vote for? What, you know, the political activism, if you like, that they may not take on?

 

JB 48:42

I think, if it’s framed as sustainability, is that as this sort of thing, then no. And this is what I mean about reframing. It’s not sustainability. It’s not this thing over there, which we just look at and chuck some cash out and go and buy Patagonia t shirt for like it isn’t that it? This is, do we believe that the current global economic model and system is there to benefit? A few, not the many is harming our health, our happiness and our planet? And that there could be a better way of existing as a human being in this world, then I think we’ve got a really good shot at it.

 

If it’s presented as a plan, or it’s just over there, you know, here’s our sustainability policy or manifesto, then no, yeah, I don’t think because people won’t make the link. People go well not actually hang on a second. I’d like my energy prices to go down and I’d like the look a little bit more food security, and I would like not to lose my home. So it’s about bringing this all together.

 

And this is this is the why I’m so politically motivated on this This is not a just a fight for, you know, keeping within 1.5 degrees or of warming or, you know, making sure that we’re the panda is protected or it’s not that’s not the fight the fight is have we reached the end of a system that is extractive, linear and completely focused on keeping a select View in power and influence and cash. Have we exhausted that now? And should we be evolving and moving on to a system that is distributive? That is circular that is regenerative, and that has that takes care of the masses needs first, before it starts delivering on anything further? I think it’s a compelling future if we shift to that.

 

And I think if we’re able to communicate that in a way that is that this is the actual fight that I think we stand a better chance, not necessarily a good chance, but I think we stand a better chance, because that is the fight but there’s not that it isn’t, you know, we’ve wrapped this around 1.5 degrees or we wrap this around, you know, there’s too much rain or there’s too much forest fires, there’s too much drought, there’s too much of those, of course are the sort of the symptoms of seeing an unhealthy sick planet in certain ways. But it is fundamentally a political fight. That’s what we are. That’s what we’re in. And I think the more we can do to link that, the better chance we have of making this a success.